Taking on my CB160 65 Revive project has introduced me to others, in the cyber world, which are owners of the same bike. One of those people is Andrew who has his own garage project in the works with his own CB160. His bike, Lucille, is getting an engine overhaul this winter season to freshen things up for the next riding season. If you’re interested in checking out his progress you can visit his blog Meet Lucille.
I felt as though I have done my CB160 rebuild coverage to death on the blog lately. It’s too bad because I have a long ways to go yet. Anyway…in an effort to get back to fabricating I opted to perform a small machining task for Andrew in order to help make a small contribution to his project.
Andrew has planned to get rid of the electric starter on his bike and rely solely on the kick-starter (or push start). My original plan was to do the same thing with my bike however the rear sets were going to interfere with the kick-starter therefore I opted to get rid of the kick-starter and keep the electric start. I wasn’t happy with the decision to maintain the extra pounds associated with the starter however the bike needs to be practical and streeteable.
Here is what the factory starter looks like installed on the CB160 engine.
So where is this heading? Well when the starter is removed permanently you need to be able to fill the empty hole with something that will keep the dirt out and the oil in. These items are known as starter block off plates. I am unsure what is available for block off plates in the aftermarket world; I never looked or researched it. I already had one mentally designed for my bike but then never got the chance to build it. Well I looked back in my brains archives and found the engineering drawn still filed away, I figured it was still there since the archives typically don’t get trashed for 2 years or so.
So with Lucille in need of a plate and me with an idea I figured it was time to unite the two and make something happen. The plan was to build a plate that required no modifications to the engine, look clean, stay put, and seal the oil. The material of choice was a section of solid 6061 aluminum round stock. Lately I have been telling my stories through pictures so I will continue the format this time as well. Follow along.
In order to machine the block off plate for Lucille I used my mock up engine that is currently installed in my bike. The hole on the left side is what needs to be filled. The idea is to machine a plug that gets installed from the inside of the side cover. The side cover bolted on is what will prevent the plug from backing out and a landing machined onto the plug will keep it from falling out from the other side. Confused? Just look at the pictures, you’ll get it.
Here are my collected necessities. My spare starter for taking measurments, a chunk of 3″ 6061 aluminum and an assortment of O-rings in hopes that one will work.
The overall depth of the plug is aproximately 1.600″ so I started by cutting off a 2″ section of aluminum to chuck up into the lathe.
This is the visible end of the block of plate machined down to spec. The diameter is the same as the factory starter housing diameter.
I machined in a groove in order to fit the o-ring seal. I made the groove just a hair wider the the o-ring thickness in order to allow for the compressing of the ring.
Here I have the other side of the plug turned down to spec. This is the side that will contact the side cover. The plug is getting parted off to within a few thou of its final dimension.
Here is the completed block off plate. You can see the landing that was machined into the center section. This landing is what will prevent the plug from coming out of the case.
Since the plug is going to be installed from the inside, the case needed to be cleaned up. The sharp edge was smoothed out, using a flap wheel, in order to prevent the o-ring from being cut while being installed.
Here is the installed position from inside the case. A little bit of white lithium grease on the oring and the plug slid in beautifully. You can now get a better idea of how the side case cover, once bolted on, will keep the plug put.
And here is what is visible from outside the engine. It looks super clean which is just how I like it. Hopefully Lucille will appreicate the addition.
Up until now my ‘65 Revive project has involved getting the engine back to stock running condition using stock parts and making no modifications to the performance aspect. My end goal, with the bike, is to be able to ride it and enjoy it and for me part of that enjoyment involves having a well running and low maintenance end product. I am not one that typically wants to spent time tuning the bike every time I want to go out just because it’s a Tuesday, in early Spring, partially cloudy, with a relative humidity of 82% and for some strange reason the bike gets temperamental every time there is a temperature change of more the 3.5 degrees. I am not really a tinker’r; I would rather spend extra time during the build process to help ensure a more “maintenance” free experience.
So let me get to the point. The ignition points that is. Back in the day everything, with an ignition system, was running with a points, condenser, some form of RPM (mechanical) advance and, with automotives, a form of load (vacuum) advance. The system obviously worked however it would be hard to say it worked well. The entire system was, what I consider, to be a mechanical set up and whenever you are dealing with mechanics there is always room for wear, tear, and the need for adjusting. Points and advance systems were not immune to this as they involved wearing items as well as moving parts that would get dirty, stick, and seize. Now as much fun as some may think it is to deal with the bare bones points system I prefer to step into the more modern age and perform an electronic ignition conversion.
These are points, condensor, and mechanical advance unit that I want to do away with.
So I started to research my options and had first discovered the little trick that people were using by converting an old VW Pertronix electronic ignition trigger unit as a points replacement on the CB160s. The more I studied it the more I realized that these conversions involved getting rid of all ignition advance mechanisms and thereby setting the base timing at full advance. Hmmm….No thanks! That may work for racing applications but this is not a streetable solution in my opinion. I have always lived by the “function first!” rule or “function over fashion”. That is to say that things need to work before they are required to look good. If it looks good but doesn’t function then I am not interested.
So I continued my research and finally stumbled upon a company by the name of Probe Engineering. This company advertises fully electronic ignition system for many of the older Hondas which include many of the CB bikes. I was intrigued by what the company was promoting so I decided to contact them to get a bit more information and a better understanding of how the system for the CB160 operates.
Mark’s kit comprises of a module, trigger wheel, pick up assembly, spark plug boots, wiring, and fantastic installation instructions.
Well this is when things went from good to great. I had emailed Probe Engineering to ask a few basic questions and I was met with responses from the owner Mark Whitebook. Mark provided me with answers to all my questions plus more. He was able to fully explain, in non-engineering terms, how exactly his system worked. He gave me everything but fluff, as he was able to knowledgeably email me about every aspect of his system. His response times were great and it was clear that he had done his homework.
So what makes Probe Engineering’s system worth the praise? For me it was a multitude of things. First and foremost is the customer service. I am one of those people that are willing to pay extra to get great customer service. I think it counts for a lot! In Marks case I didn’t have to pay anything, I received the service I expected without paying for anything…yet. The second thing that makes Marks system stand out in my books is the design. It has obviously been very well thought out.
So shall we get into detail? The kit comprises of a trigger wheel, a pick up assembly, a module, and wiring. The system is designed to replace the CB160s factory points, condenser, and mechanical advance. The electronic system allows for full timing control. It basically has 3 settings. The first being an engine start setting whereby the ignition timing is knocked way down at any engine speed below 480RPM. This not only allows for easy starting but also takes some stress off the starter and battery. The next setting is base ignition timing. This is absolutely necessary for a streetable bike. This base ignition timing is what the guys that run the Pentatronix systems do away with. Base timing allows for a much smoother, well controlled, idle. In the case of Probe Engineering’s set up base timing is adjustable to allow for fine tuning of the idle speed. The 3rd timing control comes in with the ability to simulate the original mechanical advance timing. This is obviously a requirement as timing has to be advanced with higher engine RPM.
I opted for the FS-10GL module which allows for additional RPM limiting.
Probe Engineering’s system appeared to cover all aspects of ignition timing and it appeared to fall short nowhere. Perhaps I need to back up slightly; I was getting a bit excited talking about the system. Perhaps some of you are wondering why I want to go electronic when the points system obviously works. Good question! First reason is timing control; points systems are not a precise science. If you have ever had the opportunity to using a timing light on a points style system you would see that, unless the system is absolutely perfect (in which it will not remain), the ignition timing is bouncing all over the place. When it comes to trying to tune carbs inaccurate ignition timing is a killer. The second is the maintenance factor, electronic ignition systems do not wear since there are no wearable parts. Even though the trigger wheel spins around there are basically no moving (wearable) parts. Once the system is set, it is SET! The system is run off the camshaft so if there is wear in the timing chain, or chain adjuster, then ignition timing will suffer however this is not a fault of the ignition system.
So after researching the various systems available I wasn’t convinced Probe Engineering’s system was the way to go. But after emailing with Mark I was absolutely convinced Probe Engineering’s system is the way to go. It was the whole package. It was a fully function electronic system and it had the customer service and support to go with it.
So I sent Mark an email and asked him to ship one out. Probe offers 2 systems for the CB160; you can get a module with, or without, rev limiting control. I opted to spend the few extra dollars in order to have the capability of controlling my redline.
When the system arrived on my front doorstep I was more than impressed with the construction, and visible quality, of the system. The module is housed in an aluminum, not plastic, case. The machining of the trigger wheel looked great and the pickup plate, including wiring, was well thought out. What was more impressive was the instruction manual. Mark had previously emailed me a PDF copy of the manual and therefore I had previously worked through it. The manual is well written and easy to follow. Mark has done a great job at covering all the steps required to successfully install the system.
So enough of all the background information, let’s get onto the nitty gritty of it all. I have had the opportunity to get the system installed. The fit is fantastic; no issues with the trigger wheel or pick up plate fitment. I am going to let the pictures do the talking. I have elaborated with captions to help guide you through the process.
This is what the original points (even though there is only 1 point it just does’t sound pronounced singular) setup looks like. The cam that opens the point(s) is controlled by the mechanical advance.
This is the mechanical advance that is located behind the points. The weights and spring tension are what dictates the RPM required to advance the timing. These units are subject to weak springs and sticky pivot points which contributes to inaccurate timing.
Probe Engineerings kit does away with the point(s) and mechanical advance units. To perform proper installation of Mark’s kit it is best to keep your bearings about you and set the engine at TDC and the cam pin at 12 o’clock.
This is a shot of the back side of the trigger wheel. You can see the notch machined into the wheel which indexes the wheel to the cam pin.
Here the trigger wheel is installed. Probe Engineerings kit includes a black washer that gets slid onto the wheel securing bolt in order to take up the extra play.
Here you can see the business end of the pick up assembly. This is the side that faces the trigger wheel. If you want details on how the system works you’re going to have to talk to Mark.
This is the pick up assembly installed. The fit is fantastic. The kit includes rubber backed washers that hold the pick up in place. The grommet and wire loom are all pro looking.
Here is the business end of the module. The 4 pin connector on the left is the power, ground, coil trigger, and optional tach wires. The 6 pin connector on the right is what the pick up plugs into. The three dip switches, to the right of the 4 pin connector, are used for rev limiting and the 2 push buttons, sandwiched between the 6 pin connector and dip switches, are used for base timing adjustment.
I tossed some labels onto my rotor for illustrations purposes only. There are 3 marks. The far right mark labelled TDC is, obviously, engine Top Dead Center. To the left is the base timing mark which, if you where dealing with points, you would set you base ignition timing to. The “Full” mark, which is lined up with the pointer, is full ignition advance. This is the mark you use to set Probe Engineerings static timing.
So below you will find a 33 second video that demostrates how to static time the system. The module references off of full advance. Since full advance occurs before any of the other required timing; the module wants to see that reference first. Once it knows when full advance occurs the module can then calculate where base timing is required. My apoligies for the slight fuzziness of the video. What you will want to watch is the red LED in the module. The lit LED represents dwell, that is the amount of time the ignition coil is energized. When the LED turns off this is the point at which the magnetic field inside the coil collapses and the spark plug(s) are fired. The static timing needs to be set so that the modules red LED turns off at full advance. If you watch you will see that when the full advance mark, on the rotor, comes into line with the pointer the red LED turns off. This is the point of ignition at full advance.
Here you can see the system as a whole. The 9V battery is only used to set static timing as was demonstrated in the above YouTube video.
So I have had the oppurtunity to fire the engine up with the system however I have yet to spend time tuning the carbs and setting the base timing. As far as the intial steps involved in obtaining, and installing, Probe Engineerings FS10-GL electronic ignition I have nothing but high praise. The service, quality, and set up are all top notch. I am excited to start doing some tuning and even more excited that I was able to say goodbye to my old points. And to Mr. Mark Whitebrook…if you happen to read this blog entry please feel free to correct, comment, or add as you see fit, the information you provide is more then welcomed. As I continue with my ’65 Revive project I will continue to post the reminaing steps invloved with the ignition system.
So I would like to take this moment to apologize for the content that has been consuming the blog lately. I usually try to mix things up to keep things interesting however I seem to have become obsessed with this bike project. My only guilt is with the blog as I am actually very much enjoying my own project that I can sink myself into. I feel as though the blog is overdue for some welding, or machining, content however at this point I have nothing. One of my excuses is that the shop has been scattered with engine parts for the last few months and there has been no place to do anything else. I worked hard to keep the grinding down to a minimum since I had open engine cases lying around.
This is a shot of all the parts I had left over from trying to build 1 good engine. Each one of these parts have something wrong with them that make them unusable.
Well I am unpleased to announce that I have little to report on this week. The bike still consumes my time however I am starting to move onto the second phase of the project. Although I am still waiting for a few engine parts to show up the engine rebuild has been deemed a success therefore it is time to move onto the actual bike.
I will not bore you with details at this point in time as there are many factors that come into play as I start to develop a game plan to move forward. For the present it was time to get the shop cleaned up and all the engine parts packed away. I had spent time cleaning all my old parts and then bagging them. I kept everything that I did not use and archived it all in a plastic bin. Although some of the parts are old and broken it is still important to hang onto the components for reference. Especially if I need to build something, or purchase components aftermarket, I will always have some of the factory parts to be able to go back to.
Empty engine made from old, useless, parts.
Since I didn’t want to install my good engine back in the bike for mock up purposes I took some of my old engine parts and bolted them together to create an empty mock up engine case. I then installed the engine into the bike. I need to make some crucial decisions in regards to seating, and riding, positions for the bike as I plan on modifying the current arrangement. I will also start to begin a new process of ordering parts that will contribute to the cafe mods. There is a lot of work ahead of me and things always take longer than expected.
So for today I have left you with another blog positing about my 65 revive project. I will try and mix things up in the future, If there is something you want to see just let me know. For now I trek on.
GordsGarage Blog 